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Jimbo Wales/Chat logs

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You are viewing a chat log for Jimbo Wales. It's also used at Larry Sanger though D: lulz!

[12:46pm] *** jwales ([email protected]/Jimbo-Wales) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[12:46pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) hey, Jimbo
[12:46pm] ((jwales)) hi
[12:46pm] * NotACat makes jwales a god-like mug of hot chocolate
[12:47pm] * NotACat sets up jwales.wiki ;-)
[12:47pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) ALL HAIL THE MUG OF HOT CHOCOLATE
[12:47pm] ((bastique)) mmmm
[12:47pm] ((bastique)) mug
[12:47pm] ((bastique)) of chocolate
[12:47pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) Jimbo, someone on OTRS suggested that we go to ICANN and propose a new .wiki TLD
[12:47pm] ((jwales)) "Sanger is considered the co-founder of Wikipedia alongside Wales;
 however, in about 2004 Wales began to reject crediting Sanger with the honorary appellation,
 calling himself the sole founder and, while describing Sanger's role as important, emphasized
 his status as an employee under Wales' direction.[1]"
[12:47pm] ((jwales)) This sentence very strongly takes sides in a highly POV way
[12:47pm] ((bastique)) Dragonfly6-7: I gave it to Danny
[12:47pm] ((jwales)) in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Sanger
[12:47pm] ((bastique)) jwales: https://secure.wikimedia.org/otrs/index.pl?
Action=AgentTicketZoom&TicketID=557592
[12:48pm] ((jwales)) I really wish someone could help me with this.
[12:48pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) "Sanger is widely considered the honorary co-founder of Wikipedia"
[12:48pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) how's that?
[12:48pm] ((jwales)) I can't {{sofixit}} without creating a media firestorm
[12:48pm] ((jwales)) He is NOT widely consdered "honorary co-founder" though
[12:48pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) you'd be surprised by how widely he is
[12:48pm] ((NotACat)) jwales: who did the diff?
[12:48pm] ((NotACat)) and when?
[12:48pm] ((jwales)) certainly not "honorary" that term has never been used
[12:48pm] ((ocee)) according to whom?
[12:48pm] ((ocee)) ah
[12:49pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) "However, in about 2004, Wales began to re-emphasize 
Sanger's role as an employee under Wales's direction"
[12:49pm] ((jwales)) NotACat, it goes back a few months
[12:49pm] ((jwales)) "Sanger controversially calls himself 'co-founder' of Wikipedia" is more accurate.
[12:49pm] ((bastique)) What happened to the part where you eat human remains?
[12:49pm] *** eww ([email protected]/Srikeit) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[12:49pm] ((ocee)) you would need to cite the "controversially" point, i'd think
[12:49pm] ((jwales)) It is incredibly important to know that Sanger never called
 himself co-founder until after he left my employment
[12:50pm] ((jwales)) ocee: of course it is controversial... see my bio for example :)
[12:50pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) "Sanger has described himself as 'co-founder' of Wikipedia;
 however, in about 2004, Wales began to emphasize that Sanger's role was that of an
 employee under Wales's direction."
[12:50pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) there.
[12:50pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) how's that?
[12:50pm] ((ocee)) jwales, your wikipedia entry?
[12:50pm] ((bastique)) "controversially" would be a weasel word in that context
[12:50pm] ((eww)) hello jwales :)
[12:50pm] ((jwales)) Basically the situation is that trolls have allowed Wikipedia to be
 used in spreading and maintaining this false story
[12:50pm] ((ocee)) or do you have a stable version of your biography?
[12:50pm] ((bastique)) btw I was joking about the human remains
[12:50pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) jwales, what do you think of my version?
[12:51pm] ((jwales)) Dragonfly, the bit I am unhappy about is to uncontroversially
 state, as fact, that "Sanger is considered..:"
[12:51pm] ((jwales)) He is NOT so considered
[12:51pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) Okay,.
[12:51pm] ((eww)) a bit off-topic but MONGO just deleted his userpage and pasted
 "Trolling Wins - Had enough...goodbye to this place."
[12:51pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) ohshit
[12:51pm] ((jwales)) he puts it rather successfully in his PR but until he
 did so, he was NOT so-considered
[12:51pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) well, there's Encyclopedia Dramatica's frontpage article
[12:52pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) jwales - so how about "Sanger has described himself as" ?
[12:52pm] ((jwales)) I flatlly deny quite strongly that it is coherent to say so.
[12:52pm] ((jwales)) There are published reports in which I have said that it
 is "preposterous" to think of him as co.founder
[12:52pm] ((ocee)) cite those reports then, perhaps?
[12:52pm] ((jwales)) And so it is quite important that Wikipedia refrain from EVER
 stating it as if it is an uncontroversial fact
[12:52pm] ((ocee)) or have someone else actually add the citation with the revised version
[12:52pm] ((bastique)) "is considered" is weasel too anyway
[12:52pm] ((jwales)) His title was "editor in chief"
[12:53pm] ((jwales)) he made up the "co-founder" bit after I fired him
[12:53pm] ((ocee)) cannot organisations sue a former employer for publicly
 mis-stating his/her role in the organisation
[12:53pm] ((jwales)) ocee, yes, someone else should do it, not me
[12:54pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) the thing is, there're references
[12:54pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) NY Times, etc
[12:54pm] ((ocee)) i know lots of people have said that they graduated from yale
 university without actually having attended the school, and yale intervenes all the time
[12:55pm] ((ocee)) or does anyone remember when the university of notre dame
 was looking for a coach and they chose someone (ty willingham got the job eventually) who had lied in his resume
[12:55pm] ((jwales)) There are many more references referrring to me as founder
[12:55pm] ((ocee)) he signed a contract, but notre dame got it nullified
[12:55pm] ((jwales)) and many references which show that it is controversial
[12:55pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) [[Wikipedia]] says "Created by: Jimmy Wales and Larry Sanger"
[12:56pm] ((jwales)) there is no question that it cannot be stated as a simple fact
[12:56pm] ((jwales)) that's what NPOV means
[12:56pm] ((jwales)) whenever there is a legitimate controversy, wikipedia should not take sides
[12:56pm] ((jwales)) that should say "Created by: thousands of volunteers"
[12:56pm] ((NotACat)) jwales: months and months...I'm back into January 2006 and it's still there
[12:57pm] ((bastique)) Dragonfly6-7: Blind Allez replied
[12:58pm] ((bastique)) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekmel_Ozbay GRRRRR
[12:59pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) bastique - and?
[12:59pm] ((bastique)) Well, it's clearly okay according to the copyright holder
[01:00pm] ((bastique)) Dragonfly6-7: Oh... right. They want to make sure
 you understand they don't mind people editing their non-notable band page
[01:00pm] ((jwales)) NotACat: doesn't surprise me
[01:01pm] ((jwales)) it's still POV at a minimum
[01:01pm] ((jwales)) and factually demented
[01:01pm] ((jwales)) I am thinking of asking everyone who was there at the beginning,
all the people who worked in the office if I can find them
[01:01pm] ((jwales)) and getting statements from them on this question
[01:01pm] ((NotACat)) jwales: I gave up when I got to December 2005, at which point
 it had actually been in the lede
[01:01pm] ((jwales)) confirmed that NO ONE would have considered Larry the founder or
 anything like it at that time
[01:02pm] ((NotACat)) do we have anything to cite Lary calling himself the "co-founder"?
[01:02pm] ((jwales)) several people have commented to me privately over the years
about how neatly Larry performed this little sleight of hand
[01:02pm] ((bastique)) The history "you can edit"
[01:02pm] ((NotACat)) or are people simply adding this in...
[01:02pm] ((NotACat)) without sources?
[01:02pm] ((jwales)) Larry calls himself co-founder all over the place
[01:03pm] ((jwales)) every chance he gest
[01:03pm] ((jwales)) gets
[01:03pm] ((jwales)) that's easy to find sources for
[01:03pm] ((bastique)) Are there sources for your denying it?
[01:03pm] ((NotACat)) jwales: how about this:
[01:03pm] ((NotACat)) ---Sanger claims to be the co-founder of [[Wikipedia]] alongside Wales{{fact}};
[01:03pm] ((NotACat)) however, while describing Sanger's role as important, Wales
 himself emphasizes his status as an [[employee]] under Wales' direction.<ref>---
[01:03pm] ((NotACat)) then someone can replace that {{fact}} with an actual cite
[01:04pm] ((Alkivar)) jimbo the only way your ever going to shut people up about this
 is prove wikipedia was started on day X ... and show larry's pay stub from that day as en employee I guess
[01:04pm] ((jwales)) that sounds accurate
[01:04pm] ((jwales)) Alkivar: no one denies that he was my employee at that time
[01:04pm] ((jwales)) it is somewhat a matter of semantics, he could be co-founder
 of wikipedia *and* an employee
[01:04pm] ((freakofnurture)) oh, get yourself a black madonna, dressed in
 rhinestones sittin' on a...
[01:04pm] ((freakofnurture)) hello room
[01:04pm] ((jwales)) it is more a question of: who drove the vision from the beginning
[01:04pm] ((bastique)) NotACat: Make it all past tense
[01:04pm] ((jwales)) he just worked there
[01:04pm] ((bastique)) it sounds more encycopedic
[01:05pm] ((jwales)) and bitched about the openness of wikipedia from day one, wanting
 to ban people, lock everything down, etc., and I refused
[01:05pm] ((jwales)) eventually that and his demands that I put advertising on wikipedia
 led me to fire him
[01:06pm] ((Alkivar)) so then i guess larry's vision of an advertising supported wiki
 would be he envisioned wikia?
[01:06pm] ((freakofnurture)) if mr. sanger is "ineligible for rehire" you should release a
 statement to that effect :D
[01:06pm] ((NotACat)) bastique: his claims and jwales' counter-claims are
 ongoing...otherwise we'd have to say when he STOPPED claiming such, which he hasn't
[01:06pm] ((bastique)) I think that is too much information
[01:07pm] ((bastique)) For the article
[01:07pm] ((bastique)) We want truth, not disparagement
[01:07pm] ((jwales)) Alkivar: no, not wikia
[01:07pm] ((bastique)) NotACat: Then present perfect
[01:07pm] ((bastique)) "Have been" rather than "Are"
[01:07pm] ((jwales)) well, I don't want us to run him down or disparage him
[01:08pm] ((jwales)) I just want us to stop stating as if it is an uncontroversial
 fact that he and I are "co-founders"
[01:08pm] ((freakofnurture)) don henley of the eagles once said that rock bands work best as
 benevolent dictatorships
[01:08pm] ((freakofnurture)) and look what happened to felder
[01:08pm] ((bastique)) Tell that to David Lee Roth
[01:08pm] ((jwales)) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Universe
[01:08pm] ((jwales)) we do it all over the place
[01:09pm] ((bastique)) Oh, present tense?
[01:09pm] ((bastique)) That doesn't mean it doesn't stink
[01:09pm] ((bastique)) Of course, 85% of article style on wikipedia makes me cringe at least a little bit
[01:11pm] ((Eagle_101)) do we have a CU laying around somewhere?
[01:11pm] ((bastique)) Eagle_101: at this hour?
[01:11pm] ((Eagle_101)) yes
[01:11pm] ((bastique)) Is Mackenson?
[01:11pm] ((bastique)) I forget
[01:11pm] ((Eagle_101)) ok
[01:12pm] ((freakofnurture)) Mackensen *
[01:12pm] ((jwales)) Will someone help me by cleaning this up all over the site?
[01:12pm] ((Eagle_101)) I need it for clarification of Essjay's resualt
[01:12pm] ((jwales)) http://www.google.com/search?q=co-founder+larry+sanger+site:wikipedia.org&hl=en&lr=&
safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&start=10&sa=N
[01:12pm] ((freakofnurture)) a database dump would be more effective than google
[01:12pm] ((jwales)) not all of those are examples, and many are on talk pages or whatever
[01:12pm] ((Eagle_101)) sure jwales
[01:12pm] ((NotACat)) WTF? 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Quebec_Wikipedians'_notice_board is the first result ;-)
[01:12pm] ((Eagle_101)) so what am I doing jwales?
[01:12pm] ((jwales)) but I would say that there are at least 2 dozen places where people
have made Sanger the "co-founder" uncontroversially
[01:13pm] ((jwales)) when that is just flat wrong
[01:13pm] ((Eagle_101)) mmm ok
[01:13pm] *** pgk_away ([email protected]/Pgk) has joined #wikipedia-en-admins
[01:13pm] ((bastique)) Eagle_101: You're de co-foundering Larry Sanger
[01:13pm] ((NotACat)) and why is google showing results under Special:Export?
[01:13pm] ((Eagle_101)) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-
US%3Aofficial&q=co-founder+larry+sanger+-Talk+site%3Awikipedia.org&btnG=Search
[01:13pm] ((bastique)) Good lord
[01:13pm] ((freakofnurture)) download the "current revisions" dump of article splace and get an exact
figure on the pages containing same
[01:13pm] ((Eagle_101)) jwales use that google search
[01:13pm] ((Eagle_101)) I exempted talk pages
[01:13pm] ((bastique)) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_the_free_encycolpedia
[01:13pm] ((bastique)) encycolpedia
[01:14pm] ((Eagle_101)) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.
mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&q=co-founder+larry+sanger+-Talk%3A+site%3Awikipedia.org&btnG=Search
[01:14pm] ((Eagle_101)) that might be better yet
[01:14pm] ((freakofnurture)) i could do it this afternoon but i need to focus on getting money to eat
[01:14pm] ((Eagle_101)) looks like 49 google hits
[01:14pm] ((bastique)) freakofnurture: Who are you going to rob>?
[01:14pm] ((eww)) or kill?
[01:15pm] ((eww)) or maim atleast?
[01:15pm] ((bastique)) no, he's not a killa
[01:15pm] ((Eagle_101)) jwales what am I doing here?
[01:15pm] ((Eagle_101)) I need to remove instances of co-founder?
[01:15pm] ((bastique)) Eagle_101: Don't forget what you came on channel for :)
[01:15pm] ((jwales)) eagle, that's a good goole search
[01:16pm] ((Eagle_101)) bastique yeah :D
[01:16pm] ((jwales)) what are you doing, eagle_101 ?
[01:16pm] ((Eagle_101)) I was doing [[WP:AE]]
[01:16pm] ((Eagle_101)) and I had a unclear CU result
[01:16pm] ((Eagle_101)) I rolled back a bunch of spam about 30 minutes ago ;)
[01:17pm] ((Eagle_101)) jwales but I would be glad to help with this...
[01:17pm] ((jwales)) oh, basically my concern is that Wikipedia ought not to state as if it were an
uncontroversial fact that Larry Sanger was the co-founder of wikipedia
[01:17pm] ((jwales)) not only is it highly controversial, it is false
[01:17pm] ((jwales)) I do not want us to take my own POV as our approach, of course
[01:17pm] ((bastique)) Change all instances of "co-founder Larry" to "self-proclaimed co-founder Larry"
[01:18pm] ((Eagle_101)) ok, but your concern is at least basis to move the offending phrase to the talk page
[01:18pm] ((jwales)) my own POV is that Larry has been very successful at concocting for himself a career out
of a self-awarded title that no one who was there at the time would have thought sensible at all
[01:18pm] ((jwales)) but all that I ask is that we not take Larry's POV all over the place
[01:18pm] ((jwales)) there is a circularity here
[01:18pm] ((jwales)) I have corrected reporters on this point
[01:18pm] ((Dragonfly6-7)) "usurper Larry"
[01:18pm] ((jwales)) and they have said "oh, well, I got that from wikipedia"
[01:18pm] ((jwales)) but then that just makes one more source which would tend to confirm the lie :(
[01:19pm] ((bastique)) "Satanic baby-killing larry"
[01:19pm] ((Eagle_101)) jwales ok, I can remove all instances... and put to the talk page... lord knows that
someone will complain
[01:19pm] ((freakofnurture)) pleased to meet you, hope you guess my name
[01:19pm] ((bastique)) Dragonfly6-7: don't say nazi
[01:19pm] ((Eagle_101)) and I will be as busy as ever... but oh well
[01:20pm] ((Eagle_101)) jwales I am going to move all these to talk pages as unverified fact
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